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 Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop

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Carabas
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PostSubject: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:28 am

Making people pay for mods on the steam workshop is the new stunt Valve and Bethesda have pulled to cash in on mods (they get the biggest piece of the pie that goes without saying).

The problem is that there is no way for them to make sure that a mod has not been stolen from someone and that it was not made using assets from other games which will make copyright infringement a very real issue.

Besides the terms of service of various game editors have always stated that you could not use these tools to sell mods.

In any case that is going out of hand and I would definitely warn anyone here not to spend a dime on that.

I've dabbled in modding to the extent of my limited abilities and I wouldn't take money for any of the mods I've uploaded (not that I would expect people to pay me) and while I agree that some contributions made by modders are worthy of a donation there is a fine line between making a donation (thus possibly helping a modder to get some better software for instance) and paying someone and turning a hobby into a business (and a shady one at that).

The real consequence is that good modders will stop sharing their mods and people who are after a quick buck will steal and rip to upload stuff to the workshop while the fat cats will smile and take their % so it's time to act before it's too late.

Don't spend a dime on steam workshop content and if you have a moment to spare consider signing this petition:

https://www.change.org/p/valve-remove-the-paid-content-of-the-steam-workshop

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Nakia the Rogue
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:53 am

Don't worry, Cara, I saw that too and do not have any intention of buying mods from Steam. This is another case of Publishers cashing in on a good deal. There is also no guarantee that the mod will not conflict with what you have, will not cause harm to your game. Do they even scan the mod for virus?

Pirating here we come.

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Carabas
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:34 pm

Guess who is in favour of paying for mods?

http://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/611704531888286404/

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Nakia the Rogue
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:15 pm

Laughing And he is one who claims money isn't important to him. Wonder how many people will actually buy the mods.

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:18 pm

Carabas wrote:
Guess who is in favour of paying for mods?  

http://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/611704531888286404/
I guess this is about G the unfriendly permanently victimized one. Twisted Evil

EDIT: I was correct Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:34 pm

Yep, he does manage to cause a stir.  Seventeen hours and around 250 posts if I figured correctly.  I read some of the posts maybe the first thirty.  All I can say is that he is a  professional victim.
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I did sign the petition against charging for mods.

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:52 pm

There are some 700 people with more money than sense who have apparently bought one of the armour mods on sale today. That's not a lot considering the number of people on steam but it shows that there is a sucker born every minute. For just one mod that makes over a thousand bucks more for Bethesda.

There is no small profit and unless people keep being vocal about it we can expect to see even more of that nonsense all over steam...

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:23 pm

Interesting, I just tried clicking on several for sale mods all came up with the message this item is no longer for sale. ???

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:21 pm

Carabas wrote:
Guess who is in favour of paying for mods?  

http://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/611704531888286404/

I wouldn't want any of his mods on my computer even if someone offered to pay ME to install them.

EDIT:

"I personally could make a million from selling my mods easily."

Hahahaha! Oh, dear.
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:35 pm

Kana wrote:
Carabas wrote:
Guess who is in favour of paying for mods?  

http://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/611704531888286404/

I wouldn't want any of his mods on my computer even if someone offered to pay ME to install them.

I know how you feel, Kana but Kvatch Aftermath was a fun mod. Technically not one of his better ones but a really good, in my opinion, mod. It had warmth, humanity, soul. Unfortunately he seems to have lost those things both as a human and a modder. He is a failure and he bolsters himself by putting down others. He is also a fool as he cannot understand how his egotistical whining comes across to others.

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Kana
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:41 pm

I tried only a couple of his mods. One was for Fallout 3, and it honestly didn't measure up very well compared to other quest mods for the same game. It was mostly focused on collecting useless clutter, and Bethesda games are hardly lacking in fetch quests. Another was the NCR mod for New Vegas, but it caused crashes, but, of course, I couldn't dare suggest that on his site.

Then, of course, I saw him for what he really is. Now, having one of his mods on my computer would make me feel dirty. Like having a painting by John Wayne Gayce hanging in your bedroom or something. At some point, the artist can overshadow the art.
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:03 pm

I agree, Kana, I didn't play Fallout 3 but did New Vegas and tried his mod and uninstalled it. Not good. Yes, there comes a point when the person can overshadow the art especially when the art has lost its soul. I want nothing that reminds me of him.

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:26 pm

I'm not a fan of the idea of paying for mods. This will basically turn mods into DLC, cynical attempts to squeeze more dough out of the players. Rather than being labours of love, mods will become business ventures. I wonder how long it will be before we start seeing paid DLC for paid mods. "You've played The Knights of Crapsack mod, now, for a mere $1.99, you can have your very own set of reskinned Crapsackian armor!"

I would have been against this anyway, but Gizzard being in favor of it just makes me all the more certain it's a bad idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:36 pm

Any one selling his or her mod should also expect to have some very strong critquing just as game developer so. Possibly even more. Is it buggy? Better get it fixed quickly. That house I bought why doesn't it have a cook and maid? The bedroom should be aqua instead of rose. and so on.

And why shouldn't they? When you sell a product to the public the public has a right to voice their opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:57 am

It's a terrible idea because the idea behind mods is sharing with the community. It's about having a hobby, not another job.

Besides, what you're hinting at is already a problem. I have a few mods up on the Nexus and sometimes people can be very obnoxious. As a modder you can treat them like the brats that they are but if you're into the business of selling mods then those guys become customers and that's not something to look forward to.

The donation option seems to be a perfect compromise because that way people can support a mod they really like and people who can't afford spending money (kids, people who are unemployed, on a short budget or people from third world countries) can still access the mods.

Paying for mods brings a number of complications because more often than not modders use someone else's assets, scripts, or ideas. There is nothing wrong with a certain amount of collaboration when no money is involved but when there is profit to be made you can expect the worst from people.

The modders responsible for the Skyrim script extender have issued a statement that their work would remain free which is really commendable because if they had said they wanted a cut they could have thrown a wrench into the whole thing (it's hard to make really good mods without the script extender).

People who are willing to pay more than a buck for a suit of armour for Skyrim are stupid or ignorant (there are hundreds of free mods on the Nexus that look as good if not better) but they also set a terrible precedent for other games.

Steam is very ill equipped to deal with all that. They will do what they do best and that's hosting the files and take their cut but I don't expect them to watch out for modders or customers. Modders are going to see their mods stolen and customers are going to get ripped off. That's inevitable. Besides many mods are in violation of copyright laws so I wonder how things will work out when the really big players decide to have their lawyers look into that. It should prove interesting...

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:40 am

Players are going to get mods that are buggy or not to their liking after they try them out or that conflict with other mods. As long as the mods were free that was no big issue. Uninstall, rinse and move on. Even if the modder is willing to refund the 25% they received will Valve and Bethesda?

Considering that at one time I had over one hundred mods installed for Oblivion you are not dealing with a small cost. If I were playing Skyrim I would head to NEXUS where I can try out a mod and then donate to a modder if I really like the mod.

Considering the mentality of some people I have a feeling people will buy the mods thinking that because they pay for them they are somehow better than the free ones. The same attitude that believes that a professional is automatically better than an amateur.

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:43 am

A professional is usually much better than an amateur but there are some very mediocre people who manage to make a living out of their lack of skills...

That being said the modders who are selling their mods are in for a world of grief. Steam users are quick to misbehave and with the lack of moderation good luck banning paying customers from the service.

Plus refund policies on steam are non existent. They are offering a 24 hour limit to get your money back in your steam wallet (not real money so you will have to spend it on steam) but that's hardly enough time for regular users to find out whether a mod is for them or not (let alone the quality of the mod).

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:41 pm

Professionals often have special training and do have certain legal responsibilities but the main difference between a professional and an amateur is payment.   To assume that a modder who sells his or her mods is better than one who does not is silly.  In fact I would question buying mods because the modder is then making mods to make money rather than doing it for the love of making mods.  

The point I am trying to make is that by selling mods which up to now as been a sharing process the whole situation changes.  I would now expend money for items that before I could use and either keep or discard without loss of money.

Prior to this if I did not like a mod I simple dropped it and moved on but if I bought a mod and found it to be unacceptable for reason I would want to report this and my reasons.  I think in the long run modders will find buyers much more harsh than users have been in the past, much more demanding.

G is a special case because he sees a troll in anyone who disagrees with him, who questions him or his mods.  However I think more reasonable modders will find people much more demanding and critical.  \\There also all the ramifications that you, Cara, have already mentioned.  This is going to be one gigantic mess.  What happens if a mod uses voice actors?    Just one example.

PS: There is also the fact that selling the mod the amount received becomes income. I have no idea about the laws of other countries but income is taxable in the USA. The modder should be keeping records of his or her expenses.

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:20 pm

Good point Nakia, I don't think American modders have thought about that. The whole thing is beyond ridiculous.

By the way modders who have embraced the whole concept are fooling themselves, people who will buy their mods will have certain demands and rightfully so.

I've had some experience troubleshooting the mods I've uploaded on the Nexus and they were little things but people are quick to say you've broken their game or that your mod has messed up their settings. Just imagine how worse things will become when any random users will start having demands.

Plus I've checked some of the things that have been posted and it seems the steam lawyers don't really care about who made the mod and the rest. They probably won't take down mods unless they get other lawyers threatening action.

Honest modders who don't want to indulge that craze are going to be the first to suffer and see their work abused and stolen.

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:37 pm

I joined a Steam chat rooom for a while and I think one mod has been taken down already because it used assets from another mod. Also you already mentioned the using of copyright material. Steam needs to be careful about what mods it puts out for sale. Unfortunately I also think they have made a profit off this in just twenty four hours. I also saw a YouTube video and one of the people who commented took they attitude I fear people would that a mod they have to buy is better than one they get for free. Oh well I don't have to buy any mods and eventually this will shake down. We can only wait and see what happens and what other companies get on the band wagon.

No one can force me to buy a mod and I doubt I will be playing Skyrim again. Steam has opened a can of nasty worms and they are the ones who will suffer for it not me. Modders don't have to join in this and if they do then again that is their problem not mine.

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:52 pm

If I was going to pay for a mod, I would expect it to be of professional quality and to receive professional level support for it. I saw that one of the armor mods for sale requires the user to use console commands to add the armor to their inventory. You pay for an armor mod and they can't even be bothered to add them to the game world?

The way some modders like to say, "My mods are bug-free. If you experience a problem, it's your fault." That will not fly when their mod users are customers. Throwing tantrums and calling anyone who has a problem with their mods trolls isn't going to be acceptable. They won't be able to take down their mods out of spite when people have paid real money to access them.

And getting refunds back as money in your steam wallet? Yeah, no thanks.

I'll bet that Fallout 4 or TESVI will only support Steamworks mods.
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:28 pm

Exactly. If you're paying good money it's your prerogative to expect some decent support. Using a console command to get the item in the game is preposterous (it would be easy enough to create a tamper list and add it to the forge).

I think you're right about Fallout 4 and TES VI Kana. I can't see why they'd want to have some competition on the Nexus and other places. Not that it matters so much in the end, I'm sick and tired of Bethesda and I don't expect fallout 4 to be anything special (especially considering that Fallout New Vegas put Fallout 3 to shame despite the fact Bethesda forced some tight deadlines on Obsidian).

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I also saw a YouTube video and one of the people who commented took they attitude I fear people would that a mod they have to buy is better than one they get for free.

I don't trust people who make a living thanks to youtube channels. They may say that they're not working for the big guys they are not going to bite the hand that feeds them by taking a real stance especially when it comes to making money by selling things people don't need.

The silly thing is that modding is the only reason people are still playing these games after all these years. Take that away and there is no reason to go back. Who in their right mind would pay the price of a new game to be able to use mods in a 2011 game? That's preposterous and it's high time Skyrim gets taken down a notch or two (which ironically is happening right now as irate steam users are spamming the steam page with negative reviews for the game).

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:01 pm

Yes, I noticed that Skyrim's rating on Steam went from "Overwhelmingly Positive" yesterday to "Very Positive" today. I wonder how much lower it will go.
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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:17 pm

If I felt this was a valid attempt to support modders I would be more neutral in my reaction but with the modder only getting 25% of the cut and Steam and Bethesda taking the lion's share I feel it is just another ploy for corporations to make money off the backs of the laborers.

Legal question: If a modder makes from scratch an item, any item, for game and does not use in assets from the game does that mean he or she owns the whole rights to the mod? Could someone say making a sword from scratch sell that without permission from Beth or giving Beth a cut?

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PostSubject: Re: Paying for mods on the Steam Workshop   Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:34 pm

If you upload it to Steam Workshop you won't be able to take it down or do as you wish with it.

The problem is that if you've been using the construction kit then you fall under the terms of use and the same applies to whatever program you've been using to make the model of that sword. So unless you've been using some free software or some software that doesn't require you to get a specific licence you won't be able to do what you want.

Of course you can upload it somewhere else and ask for donations so you're not selling the mod but still get some sort of compensation.

Truth is, you can't make sure your mod is not going to be uploaded somewhere else. It happened to some of my modest contributions in the past... See, some people used to re-upload mods on third party sites to get some ad revenue from increased traffic.

What makes me laugh is reading people saying that now that they can make money out of the Steam Workshop they are looking forward to modding Skyrim... That is really a shitty reason for getting into modding and I don't expect them to come up with anything worthy of any consideration.

It's not the 25% that I find problematic, it's the fact that money is involved and that changes everything. Not only they are turning mods into fan made DLCs with absolutely no quality control and no accountability or official support but they are making it impossible for modders to work together. All we can expect is distrust between modders who won't share tips or help each other because they will be competing for sales.

That's why I'm opposed to that scheme. Donations are a different matter altogether but the real problem with donations is that it's harder for Steam and the publishers to justify taking a cut.

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