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 Pillars of Eternity

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Carabas
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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:12 pm

Nice. I've put my game on hold and I was considering starting over (not too happy with how my Rogue performs). I think I may wait for the expansion to get back into the game properly. I'd like to see this run through but I also have many ideas for different runs.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:14 pm

The patch isn't the expansion and that I don't expect until September if then. They keep putting off any info on that. I suspect some marketing hype. But the patch I think will be interesting in itself with the new AI party scripts. Those I want to try out. I do like my current character a priest(ess) of Berath. She is level 8 but I have stopped playing waiting for that patch.

Rogues I understand can be pretty powerful. Perception will change with the patch to govern accuracy which makes sense to me.

On the official forum people are still arguing over engagement and disengagement. I don't understand what the problem is. If a fighter is engaged with an enemy and tries to disengage I think there should be an attack of opportunity. Fantasy can only and I think should only be an approximation of real life combat but some things just make sense to me from a RP view.

Sure you can enchant your rapier to turn it into a slash weapon as well as a piercing one or turn a saber into being able to do pierce damage because there is magic in the air but that is player's choice. At least the weapons start out correctly. As far as I can tell PoE did a good research job on weapons. Helmets are a bit flaky since in RL that is the first piece of armour a fighter would get including ranged ones. Too bad that shields can't be placed on the back when not engaged in fighting but I can live with that.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:10 am

I agree. I think attacks of opportunity are really good. Combat should be about controlling the environment and finding the right positions for your fighters. That's where tactics come into play. People need to grow out of the bad habits they've retained after playing D&D. The very notion of Armor Class was only meant to be a gross approximation. In pen and paper it would be negated according to certain circumstances but in computer versions of the ruleset your characters can be surrounded and still manage not to be overwhelmed.

Temple of Elemental Evil was more tactical but I never could really sink my teeth into it because of all the messy bugs.

Back to PoE, Rogues are great damage dealers but I've been making a front guy out of mine. Considering how healing and wounds work it's not ideal and I've come to rely on Eder quite a bit. All things considered I'm torn on whether I should start over or not.

My other problem is that I've been waiting for the big upgrades for Divinity Original Sin, Wasteland 2 and the new Shadowrun game set in Hong Kong (which should come out in August). With the expansion for PoE that means a lot of isometric CRPGs to put time into this fall.

I'm not complaining. I just need to find a way to organize my gaming time.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:37 am

Smile This has been a banner year for serious role playing gamers. Let's enjoy it while it lasts.

I make Eder my main tank and let him take the heat. I find I don't enjoy playing fighterrs as much in isometric games as I did in the TES type open world. Especially if I found a mod that really spiced up the action even if not technically correct according to the HEMA experts. pirat My priestess is a semi tank due to the fact that Berath priests get a bonus to swords especially two handed and nothing for ranged weapons. I have to watch her endurance carefully though. I didn't max out might although now she has better equipment and a couple of bonuses . Food is worth using not a big bonus but it lasts and can be eaten before a battle or dialogue and despite what the game says it can be eaten during battle. All my party members have three points in athletics and I have given Eder extra stealth points so he can sneak close to the enemy. Aloth is still my weakest member but he does the most damage. Laughing

I also think a lot of the complainers are people playing on Trial of Iron + PotD. Since I don't play on those I have no idea what their problem is. There is so much to the game that combat for me is just another piece of it and not the be all end. I am not out to beat the game but to enjoy it.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:38 am

I love that the game allows us to conceal all the skill checks during dialogues, that's such a big help and it allows to focus on the story without obsessing about numbers and builds.

That alone is a reason why this game is well above the rest IMHO.

The crpg revival is absolutely fantastic. We could also add some other games like Blackguards and Xulima. After years of drought we can finally quench our thirst for party based isometric rpgs and that's fantastic! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:15 am

Carabas wrote:
I love that the game allows us to conceal all the skill checks during dialogues, that's such a big help and it allows to focus on the story without obsessing about numbers and builds.

That alone is a reason why this game is well above the rest IMHO.
 Highlights mine.  I must remember this for an appropriate moment with those number crunchers on the PoE forum.  lol!
Carabas wrote:


The crpg revival is absolutely fantastic. We could also add some other games like Blackguards and Xulima. After years of drought we can finally quench our thirst for party based isometric rpgs and that's fantastic! Smile

cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:09 am

I'm first and foremost a roleplayer but when it comes to computer games I have terrible number crunching tendencies that need to be curbed... It's fine with a game like IWD2 because the whole point of the game is to be creative with builds while enjoying the linear story but in other games it's a shame when the numbers simply get in the way of the story.

PoE is a streamlined game that manages to be a rich and deep experience. I don't want to gut the game and see all the skill checks. Playing a pen and paper RPG you don't have to be told that your skill comes into play, if your character is well defined that is pretty obvious. Playing a CRPG you look at all these numbers telling you that you would get several other options if your character was stronger, more athletic, smarter, had a certain skill... That gets in the way of actually playing a role.

Disabling this information in PoE makes the game about playing your character, using what strengths your character has instead of focusing on what he or she could be doing.

I understand the idea behind powergaming and using foreknowledge (and cheese), that's what all the difficult mods for BG2 were about. I'm not saying it can't be fun but it's playing a game, it's not playing a role. It's not about being immersed in a story, it's about gathering as many XP points and gold as possible while actual RPing is taking a backseat because you go for the optimal route that will net the best rewards.

Another thing that I just love about PoE is how you gain XP. That's the most ground breaking concept in the entire game and it's simply exhilarating.

The old D&D trope about killing monsters and getting gold harks back to the times when D&D was little more than a wargame with miniatures. It's high time computer roleplaying games moved away from that outdated model!

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:16 pm

I agree with you.    When I started playing PoE my reaction was that I had opened a story book and stepped into the story as the main character.  I was hoping it would be story driven and it is.    When I finally settled on playing a priest of Berath I did so knowing that it would force me to role play.  Berath is the god of rebirth, the return of the soul to the Wheel, a rather cold but fair god.   A god who cannot love but can be kind.  

I think PoE is ground breaking and I think that is confusing a lot of people.   It is a game that goes back to the PnP role playing something that is actually new to computer games.  The devs figured out how to bypass the rather rigid reputation system.  The player now has the choice as to whether their character is good, evil, neutral ora a mixture but once committed to either a diety or in the case of a paladin an order you do have consequences if you break their rules.

I also think some people don't understand the melee fighter's role.  They seem to think he is the main fighter and although important he is there to protect you spell casters to draw enemy fire, to be a guard.  He truly is a tank.  Your rogue is a hit and run assassin who fights dirty and is proud of it.  Laughing that reminds of a HEMA video I saw.  One of my favorite experts was showing how to fight with a longsword and I almost fell off my chair laughing as he demonstrated.  He was demonstrating one move and did use his sword to parry an attack and then used his knee for a groin attack.  I really should find that video and put it up for you.  There is no honour in mortal combat the whole idea is to stay alive while killing the guy who is trying to kill you.  Fascinating stuff.

You probably know this but I was surprised to find out that weapons and armour does not weigh as much as I thought it did.  Swords run from about 2 1/2 lbs or 1.1 kilogram to 4.5lbs (2 kilograms) think I got the conversion correctly.  A mail shirt can be worn over just about anything and is light weight and not confining.  It can be slipped on or off quickly.  Plate of course is heavier but as heavy as I thought.  Seems the back of the plate is not as thick which is where the term "guard my back" came from.  Seems knights fought in teams and did guard each other's back.  Who says computer games aren't educational?  Not me  I have expanded my knowledge immensely since starting to play computer games.

Did you know the finest sword ever made was the Samurai sword and it so far has not been duplicated with modern technology.  We know the core was iron because iron is more flexible than steel then steel was overlaid and the sword was reforged with some very secret recipe of in order to be able to make the extremely durable and sharp blade.  Of course the finest material was used.  Replicas can be made but not the real thing.  

I have all sorts of trivia like that now.  Smile
Sorry I didn't mean to write a book.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:06 pm

Please do write a book, I will read it! Smile

Are you referring to Masamune, the greatest Japanese sword maker in history? Japanese swordfighting is radically different (for starters they didn't use shields and they didn't have the same types of armours).

Katanas are a bit overrated if you ask me. If I had to choose I'd pick a Renaissance rapier over a katana, it may be less flashy and stylish but one thrust could be as deadly.

The weight of medieval weapons and armours is subject to variation but there are misconceptions. A really huge sword is going to be on the heavy side no matter what. I saw a real claymore when I was in Scotland and it was almost as tall as I am... But that would have been an exception.

Quote :
One of my favorite experts was showing how to fight with a longsword and I almost fell off my chair laughing as he demonstrated.  He was demonstrating one move and did use his sword to parry an attack and then used his knee for a groin attack.  I really should find that video and put it up for you.  There is no honour in mortal combat the whole idea is to stay alive while killing the guy who is trying to kill you.  Fascinating stuff.

Definitely, the only people who play by the rules are people who are putting on shows.

I'd love to see this video if you can find it.

By the way most swords were not meant to block enemy attacks. Doing so with a regular sword will break it sooner or later (that's why knights had shields). Most games fail to reproduce the chaotic nature of any confrontation.

The worst part is that people are used to games showing combat in such a way that they won't accept anything different. Take two weapon fighting for instance, the way it's shown in games is absolutely preposterous. According to Skyrim it's all about offence and DPS when it should be about blocking and countering (which is why rapiers were often paired with parrying daggers or "main gauche" -which literally means "left hand" in French).

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:08 pm

Yes, Masamune.  I love chatting with you about things like this and other things too of course but on the PoE forum mostly what I say is ignored only a couple of guys actually respond to my posts.  Since most of the people there think I am a guy unless I push my womanhood in their face I don't think that is why I am ignored I just think you are correct they don't want to deal with reality and want the fireworks and dram of Hollywood.  Oh I need to find that video I saw about the samurai it was very interesting.  The Eastern Martial Arts is much more dramatic then the HEMA.  The style of course is different but also the art was I understand continuous while the European was broken when guns became popular and some knowledge has been lost or at least verifiable sources found.

The expert I referred too is Matt Easton, a Brit who runs a school for training in HEMA.  Yes the claymore is only for the strong and I imagine biggish person.  I do check other sources but what I like about Matt Easton's videos is he does a good demonstration that I can follow easily without eyestrain.  He tends to be a bit arrogant IMO.  Has other experts on and then does at least 75% of the talking and demonstration.  I think he really enjoys being in the spotlight but he also responds to viewers requests ad questions.

Laughing I get distracted.  Went to find the video I mentioned and ran across this one.  Just the start caught me as I my Scottish ancestors were part of the Campbell Clan.  I was told some stories about the feuds by my grandmother.

I will find the other videos and post them. Must watch this one.

I will return.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:00 pm

Now you have me going haven't found the video I wanted but this one is a bit of fun.    You may note a criticism in the comments which I think justified.  The weapons weren't weird they were developed as needed what is weird about that?
And here is Matt Easton on the katana.  By the way his favored weapon is the sabre and his assessment of the the katan is that it is essentially a two handed sabre and he doesn't seem impressed.


Stop me when you have had enough I can keep this up for hours.  Not sure why the subject fascinates me so much but I think it is the intricacy of it.  All that goes into using these weapons.  Sure some of the larger weapons and heavier armou need a good deal of strength but when it came to the kill the surviour was either lucky or skilled.  Chances are that with equal weapons and armour the fight would go to the more skilled not the stronger.

One more a demo of the rapier vs the katana

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:42 pm

Thanks for the videos. Smile

I agree that "weird" is just beside the point, I guess it's simply PR. Back in the day they just used what was required to get the job done (and I think you had to be really strong to use that big spiked hammer they demonstrate at the end).

The man is very knowledgeable, as far as being arrogant I believe it comes with the territory. He has to be something of a show-off to get people to follow his videos.

The billhook ("vouge" in French) was incredibly effective against horsemen (by cutting the saddle). Pole weapons are always mediocre in games when in reality they had some great potential and more importantly range (what he says about closing in on an opponent with a shield is very important when dealing with someone who has a longer weapon). Of course if you have a polearm you don't want the guy with a sword to get too close either but if you can maintain the distance the odds are not stacked against you.

I really enjoyed his video on the katana. It is stylish but clearly not as extraordinary as people would believe which has been my point all along (and now I can refer people to this video).

Oh and thanks for the rapier vs katana video. I just love how the rapier wielding guy thrusts forward like a cobra before the guy with the katana can do anything. The katana may look more impressive but once you see the rapier in action there is not much of a contest (plus it looks incredibly elegant).

Now we know who would win if D'Artagnan was to fight a samurai! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:56 pm

I think I learn more from my mistakes than from anything else.  In researching the rapier I found this out.  It was developed as a civiliarn weapon and used in dueling but it was also used in warfare by some soldiers and by town guards.  It is primarily a one to one combat weapon and because of its reach when used by a skilled person practically indefensible.  Although it looks slim and more fragile than other swords it is hard to break and in actual combat probably impossible to break since the opponent would have little chance to get a direct hit on it.  I love the lunge technique.  What is it the left foot stays in place while you step forward as much as possible with the right while thrusting?  Did I get that right.  In a real combat I think the guy with rapier would have had the Katana guy out in the first few seconds.

Arrogant probably isn't the right word for Matt Easton, just very sure of himself is probably better.  He is willing to say he doesn't know something and even when question something he usually ends by saying there is no evidence that such and such existed.  He does insist upon actual sources and not just some comment that a historian popped into his book.  I did try to teach my students to not believe everything that was written.  Sometimes I fall for the hype myself and will repeat something as fact when further research reveals it is at best questionable.

Hokay another video this time on the quarterstaff.  I was going by the Hollywood Little John and Robin Hood fight which is totally wrong.  I have watched other staff videos and they are all basically the same.\



Had to add this one.  It actually gives more info on the staff.  I think the man is from India.  


I think I have fallen love with a bearded man in a video. Very Happy I don't like beards.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:43 pm

I can't blame you, this gentleman has a magnificent beard and these videos are great. Very Happy

Swords came in all shapes and forms and that's true of rapiers as well. There was a time in Europe when any self respecting member of the nobility would have been carrying a rapier. It's sad that so many films show D'Artagnan from the Three Musketeers using foils when he should use a rapier.

As far as other weapons are concerned I think most people tend to overlook that many weapons were actually derived from everyday tools and later turned into readily available self defence implements. Such weapons originated from constraints and restrictions (after all unarmed martial art techniques were developed because actual weapons were prohibited). When it comes to the staff (aka your regular piece of wood) it's pretty obvious that its first use would be to serve as a walking stick or a pole but after watching these videos it's clear that someone skilled could put it to other uses. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:59 pm

Vidiya mentions in a video that the Staff is used as a walking stick. I thought hard about why I find him more appealing than Easton. I see Easten as a scholar of HEM, He is not a a true warrior. His videos are very good and excellent for learning about techniques and getting information. Vidiya is a warrior. He mentions at one point that he is trained to kill. He comes from a different culture and from a region that is currently in turmoil. War is real I think to him. He is a warrior.

The reason I don't care for beards is they tend to hide the face. Not all of course but the really magnificent ones do. Would Abraham Lincoln be as legendary without his beard?

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:30 pm

I can't picture Santa Claus without a beard either. santa

What you're pointing at is simply the difference between sports and real warfare. Athletes are not trained to go for a kill, they are trained to achieve perfection within the rules of their martial art. Sports are not about lethal moves, it's the display of skill and physical prowess that matters. Someone who is trained to kill won't care about looking good, what matters is efficiency.

Still, I doubt that anyone is going to be fighting any war with a stick in this day and age... Now if we're talking about cloak and dagger stuff that's another matter entirely. For instance a rolled-up newspaper can be lethal in the right (wrong?) hands.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:45 pm

Now for a little self analyzing. Why do I prefer the Warrior to the Sportsman? I think it has to do with my grandfather. He was a gentle man, we children went to him if we had a splinter or some other hurt he could fix rather than going to one of women. I never heard him speak a harsh word. He joined the army when he was fifteen he was big for his age and birth certificates were not always available back in those days. He fought in several smaller wars before the First World War. After that ended he left the army because that was the war that was to end all wars. He killed people because that was his job. He taught me to shoot when I was about 12 and also taught me that a gun was NEVER EVER to be aimed at someone or something unless you intended to use it. No bluffing, no backing down. The purpose of a gun was to kill or at least disable. I enjoyed target practice but it wasn't a sport it was just something I was expected to learn.

I do not think Vidiya likes killing, enjoys it but it was something he was expected to learn. Why learn stick fighting? Because in an area were violence can errupt quickly sticks of some kind may be the handiest weapon plus Plus one can walk around with a can and in some places even a staff without people commenting. When I go to New York or a strange place I have a metal cane I use. I actually don't need it to walk although with my eyesight it has its uses. Yes, I am sure I could use it quite easily in a one on one attack. A gange no but one mugger would be in for a shock.

However I won't have a gun in the house because if unloaded and put away they aren't much use in an emergency and if loaded and handy well Mark would have a right to fear for his life if he startled me especially during the night. My mother also taught me a few tricks so don't mess with this old lady.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:48 pm

Having a loaded gun at home is not particularly safe. Accidents do happen.

As much as the subject interests me I don't intend to start training in weapon handling. I don't see the point if it's just for sports and I'm really glad I don't have to resort to violence in my daily life. I'm a careful guy but I have a few tricks up my sleeve as well.

That being said I used to have an axe under my bed and I have a replica of a Chinese short sword (blunt) that I purchased when I was a kid.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:46 pm

It was gaming and all the crazy arguments people have that got me interested in HEMA. Years ago I also had the pleasure of seeing a Chinese group display what they they can do. It is very artistic and dramatic good entertainment. I do understand though why a warrior would look down on exposition fighting. Hollywood doesn't have a monopoly on misrepresentation.

The fact that a game is fantasy doesn't change the fact that there need to be rules. Magic must have its limitations or it becomes a farce rather than a game. If you the player can do anything you want where is the challenge. Our minds also need to process the info it receives and make sense of it.

Years ago I played a game from China called Prince of Qin and love the fighting in it but I wouldn't want it in a game set in a midievil European setting game unless there was some good reason for it.

Oops I need a nap I'm falling asleep. See you later.


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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:04 pm

Prince of Qin does ring a bell.  

I've always been fascinated by medieval lore and gear. Growing up not far from an old castle may have had something to do with this.

I still have a certain fondness for the first Witcher because of how accurate the buildings and armours looked like.

By the way have you heard of the Mount & Blade series? It's low on eye candy but the implementation of weapons feel more realistic than any Elder Scrolls game:


Some of the tips in this video made me think of the videos you've posted (the music is ghastly but it shows some nice moves). Smile

Have a nice nap (it's 11 PM here). Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:41 am

Must have slept for several hours so I may be up all night again.  We may be getting the new patch Monday probably in the afternoon my time so Monday night for you.  

Yeah, I am familiar with Mount and Blade but I think because it was so loved by that creep Giskard I was turned off.  Now you have me interested if I can get one of the games cheap I may try it.  Matt Eastn plays it I think it is the only game he does play.  He also seems to like the battle tactics in Game of Throne the series I believe.

Was that a long sword the guy in the video using?  Didn't look like a broad sword or claymore to me.  

Gadzooks that game looks like fun.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:39 pm

It sure is. Smile

Let's see if Pillars is getting a new patch.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:43 am

The devs are having a problem nothing surprising about that. Every change brings the possibility of introducing a bug. I made a post on the announcement thread obliquely trying to tell people to shut up and stop asking for changes. Hopefully there will be a sequel in a few years and it will be more polished. PoE is a very good game to play right now and the sooner they stop changing the base game IMO the better.

So back to M&B.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:12 am

No surprise there, devs should know better than to try and please everyone. It's impossible, try to do that and you'll end up disappointing everyone.

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PostSubject: Re: Pillars of Eternity   Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:51 pm

So true, Cara.  This announcement has been made.

The White March - Part 1 launches 25th August, developer Obsidian and publisher Paradox said. wrote:

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